The Dartmouth Indian debate is back...
UPDATE: T-shirt in question found. See below.
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UPDATE: T-shirt in question found. See below.
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The Dartmouth Indian debate is back...
UPDATE: T-shirt in question found. See below.
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UPDATE: T-shirt in question found. See below.
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43 comments:
1) Cowardly act by the sign-poster to be anonymous (hi anonymous)
2) This is trespassing. You can't enter someone's private property and perform an unwelcome act like this.
3) I'm all for this debate. We have established reasonable forums to argue for and against the Indian mascot use. Op-eds in the D, for an obvious example. SIgn your name, be accountable for your threats. At least when a person strolls across campus wearing an "offensive" t-shirt or jacket, they are identifiable.
Saw somebody at Crunch last night wearing a Dartmouth Indian t-shirt. It's time Crunch gym starts holding themselves accountable for the way their members disrespect the feelings of their peers. And why are the weights so heavy?
Is that thing laminated?
What was the shirt that was offensive to women?
I don't really get the whole dartmouth indian thing... I am personally not offended by it but such a large group of people have expresed being racially offended by it. Why would any fraternity choose to include a symbol on their clothing that they know personally offends other classmates? It just seems so unnecessary - there are so many things you could put on a jacket.
Also... this is a great/funny article... http://thedartmouth.com/2010/02/19/mirror/datingdie
can rob cowden please chime in on this? i value his views.
For the record, I did not anonymously post that. I generally think that with this type of incident, and the larger debate about Dartmouth's former mascot, everyone loses. On the one hand you have these total herbs who walk around campus with their Indian fracket, sweatshirt, or apparel (a demographic which seems to consist largely of generic frat dudes or Dartmouth Review types who saw an older counterpart wearing Indian gear and thought it was cool). As CCL said, even if you don't personally don't find the Indian mascot racist or offensive, enough people do that we should be respectful and not use this image/mascot. The marginal cost clearly outweighs the marginal benefit. And none of us were even alive when Dartmouth's mascot was still the Indian so it is stupid and disingenuous to try to be nostalgic for something which we never even experienced.
But then on the other hand you have these folks who leave this sign in the yard of Psi U trying to drum up outrage for something that frankly isn't that prevalent and only exists on the margins of campus life. There are far greater injustices in the world than a few boneheaded 19 year olds wearing around a bequested Indian fracket. From what I've read, Dartmouth students have initiated an impressive operation to coordinate aid for Haiti, and we would all be better off if these anonymous sign-posters would devote their time and revolutionary zeal to the Haiti relief effort rather than to build up this straw man that they can then beat down in the name of social justice.
Question:
Do new frackets continue to feature the indian, or do the new ones all have the owwwwwwwllllll? These things get steadily lost over the years, there can't be more than a few left that were bequested to my class at least (hi MJD!)
He/She was at least took the time to personalize the greeting for each organization. I wonder what greeting read on the sign outside of Parkhurst.
Geez, Bmar, way to be a square. You can't appreciate a little subversion?
Also, I want to see the shirt!
i still find it ironic that the people who are calling others out to hold themselves responsible for their actions don't sign their name to the signs...
More proof that life at Dartmouth is just an endless repetition of three year cycles.
The more things change...
thanks rob! appreciate your take.
a picture of the t shirt in question has been added to the post
oooh thanks! Huh --- I am officially NOT offended.
Case closed.
today's morning update on the situation. not much new news here
http://thedartmouth.com/2010/02/25/news/signs
From the D:
"The sign specifically criticized Psi U for using the Indian symbol, which appeared on a T-shirts made by the fraternity this Winter"
Is this accurate?
two things:
1. i don't see a huge problem with wearing a bequested indian jacket. but are we making new stuff with the indian on it? that is douchey...
2. i don't understand that shirt.
Can we get the Psi U out of the spot light? How come the D gets pictures of the signs before ANY of the brothers have a chance to take the sign down? This isn't a new issue; only continuing coverage and press will perpetuate the conversation.
MLR - as a trustee, any comments? Ghahn has a good point about indian shirts, and maybe a solution that could be made official into house policy to placate anon (and pre-emptively the administration) on this issue. We aren't going to make new ones, but we aren't going to burn our old ones either.
Much like excessive government spending and upstairs pong, I try to avoid getting in the middle of issues on which I have little opinion.
But if I had to choose, I'd side a little left of Ghahn's thoughts. I agree that tradition(!) is important and some frackets etc. have been passed down for over 168 years. That said, I agree with CLL and Co. that people, p1edges and swimmers alike have a lot of other more sensible (and frankly, more practical) apparel options. If Keggy was the real mascot, none of this would be a problem.
The women / tshirt issue is a bit nitpicky in my mind, but if you're on someone's shit list it's hard to get off I guess.
One of the Anons was right about the 3 year cycle. I still don't know why the D / Mirror don't just recycle stories / op eds every 5 years or so.
My advice to Psi U and other houses is the same that was probably offered to the Psi U's back when they took down the Indian head carved into the basement wall circa 2003: Do what you can to maintain a positive image outside the house while still holding on to the traditions that matter inside (e.g. Rush, Black Forest, Jenn Sterger).
1. Where's the Indian head on the t-shirt that is claimed to exist by the D?
2. I see the sexist part of the shirt, but not the racist part. There seems to be diversity among characters on the shirt
Anon - that's what I don't get. Are there TWO '10W shirts?
Maybe more likely the D got it wrong and the complaint is with the bequested Indian jackets after all?
Realize I said "CLL" not "CCL" in previous comments. If you want to discredit both my opinion and my editorial skills, please feel free - just avoid thinking I don't appreciate AMDAL's writers.
If the organization is making Indian shirts in 2010, the criticism on this sign is 100% valid.
But the organization isn't. Some (not even most) made the shirts. Seems a little unfair to the rest of the organization who had nothing to do with them...
If the shirts say "Psi U", they are absolutely representing the organization.
This drawn-out debate reminds me of a classic Jack Handey Deep Thoughts: "I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick 'Americans' as their mascot. "
Personally, I'd try and find the outraged individuals who posted that sign, eat a huge dinner and then throw up all over them.
Or, you could do what the Dartmouth Review did back in the 80's. As Dinesh D'Souza ('83) has written: "Another one of our escapades involved the Indian symbol. Dartmouth had banned the Indian symbol as offensive to Indians. We [the Review] sent out a survey across the country and included a picture of the Indian symbol. The tribes were asked to decide whether they found the symbol offensive. When the results came back, we found that most tribes loved the symbol. The vast majority wanted Dartmouth to retain it, and some tribes had even voted on the issue. When we published the results of our poll, a long silence ensued in Hanover. The administration had grown so used to trotting out the head of the Native American Studies department that it trusted his views could be taken as representative of the Indian population. But we had demonstrated pretty conclusively that it was not so."
I wonder if that's still the case. Either way, I still think someone should boot on them.
Who cares what tribe across america think when Dartmouth students are offended? Shouldn't that be what matters?
CCL is right. Also worth noting Dartmouth has a shameful history of actually educating the Native Americans allegedly “honored” by this Indian mascot image (the College graduated only 19 Native Americans in its first 200 years, despite its stated purpose of educating Indians).
This fact undoubtedly makes the use of a racist caricature sting a little more than it would already.
i'm with scos on this. instead of focusing efforts on a marginally offensive (marginally beloved) image, why don't these do-gooders go participate in a candle-light vigil or hungerstrike in front of progressive field (cleveland indians statium) to protest a significantly more derogatory image that receives national recognition?
Maybe it's because they don't live in Cleveland. They live at Dartmouth and wisely focus their efforts locally.
Good to see that Anon is providing some constructive commentary here. Now if we could only get him/her/them to declare themselves.
I don't question the group's motives, but again wonder if there are more effective ways of making their point?
As a former frat-bro, nothing makes a point like no one showing up to your parties and events.
Still, I think that if one were to extrapolate the daughters of dartmouth's agenda, one wonders why they don't also protest against students playing Rap music, watching television, going to certain movies shown at the hop, or studying american or world history, etc.
It's unfortunate that the group's sign postings will only divide a campus that had come together in a concerted display of community and service, efforts in which these "insensitve racists" showed active stewardship.
Given the fact that this event has dominated the D for three days and generated a tremendous amount of discussion among alums on this blog, I would say that their form of activism has been quite effective...more effective than anything I have seen in years, in fact.
While I didn't attend Dartmouth so I feel a bit hesitant to comment on this, I have a couple questions/comments about this & also to maintain my AOG-ness (part poster/ part commenter who points out the obvious & then people get mad at me). It's been a busy week, so I'm just catching up on all this....
Question #1: Why is this such an ongoing debate? I know that FSU & Dartmouth are very different schools, but I'm shocked that a state school figured out a way to make this work with their Indians, students, community, etc. and Dartmouth is still struggling. (Some info on it here & a great video :http://unirel.fsu.edu/seminoles/)
Every time this comes up, the Seminole Tribe says that they like being involved with the school, they love that it brings attention to their pride's name and frankly, they get some sweet payouts from it & frankly, it's good bartering power for them re: the casinos & cigarette taxes in FL. In fact, when most schools reneged their Indian mascots in 2002-ish (nice move NCAA...) the Seminole Tribe went to bat against the NCAA to allow FSU to keep using their name, image, etc & even sent a new horse over to the next home game to prove their allegiance.
Instead of complaining about shirts and throwing panties around, anonymously, maybe the angry people can meet with the local Indians & figure out a symbolism of the local tribe that everyone is happy with and in turn build, instead of dividing, the community in a positive way regarding the topic?
Which brings me to question #2 on this whole matter: The panties thing- WHAT?! This is so baffling to me how the two are related... as always, some questions on this- how many pairs of panties littered the porch, what type were they (and were they a fair representation of what the "this"es that won't go away would normally be wearing?), what was written on them & why didn't anyone from an environmental action group get mad about the littering and careless usage of our spandex/cotton resources? Also, did the sororities get littered with boxers that said "dishes don't clean themselves" or something similar?
It sounds like some girls are mad they didn't get invites to the last crush party... with some reasoning and research, I'm pretty sure Dartmouth can figure out who wrote the signs and also fix Indian Tribal/ angsty student relations in town.
Given the instability around town and campus these days, I've decided to move to Norwich.
So long.
Since we're brainstorming rational alternatives, I think it would be a great idea if Dartmouth stuck with the Indians, but changed it from Native Americans to real Indians from India. You have to admit that it would be awesome to walk around campus and see a smiling characture of Sour Chaud on the back of frackets.
AOG – Based on that link, it seems that FSU has made an good faith attempt to learn about and honor the culture and history of the Seminoles, through consultation with the tribe itself.
At Dartmouth, a caricature of an Indian of an unspecified tribe was created by white people who made no attempt to familiarize themselves with Native American culture and with no acknowledgment of a long history of colonialism, genocide, and oppression. (See also my comment on the College’s failure to actually educate Native Americans for many years.) The lack of cultural specificity or accuracy in the Indian mascot symbol as well as the failure to consult with Native Americans about its use is what makes the Dartmouth Indian exploitative and discriminatory.
At this point, given the painful history of the Indian image, I think it would be wise to stay away from it altogether and adopt another mascot altogether (the Moose!!!).
As for the panties, a commenter calling herself “vigilante” on IvyGateblog had this explanation: “The panties are not anti-sexual-assault or even feminist (god forbid), but rather refer to a Psi U’s response to concerns about the Dartmouth Indian tshirts about people getting their “panties in a twist” and saying the situation will just “go away” if they don’t address it.” Don’t know if this is true, but it seems to be the rumor.
As for your last comment – yes, women who care about ending discrimination are undoubtedly hideous hags who suffer from a lack of love from frat boys. It is so obvious I am surprised you even bothered to mention it. /eyeroll
Sars - I agree that their method has created attention, but I think that it will only lead to defensive responses and divison.
FRom my own experience, I think that people are made more aware of faults in a direct personal way rather name-calling an entire organizaion. WhenI was a p1edge, basking in my newly acquired frattiness, I ordered a fratcket from the frat wear company like some of my friends. When I finally got it, one of my friends, who is native American, pulled me aside calmly and explained his perspective about the indian symbol. He didn't yell at me, call me a racist, or leave anonymous notes on my door. He just told me that he felt hurt when he saw it. I never wore the jacket.
Go Sars! I enjoy your sarcastic feminist joke
Eaac - thank you for sharing that story. It sounds like both you and your friend handled the situation well. I had a similar conversation my freshman year with a Jewish friend after I used a certain (what I now know to be pejorative) term for Jewish women - and I know how easy it is to become defensive, so it is to your credit that you responded without doing that.
I do agree that the situation you described is ideal. But at the same time, I can't help but think that action like this (while there is no doubt that it causes some anger and defensiveness) is also good because it creates a situation in which people are prompted to share stories like yours that they otherwise would not have had a reason to discuss. For what it's worth...
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